The silence of the pro sports world in the face of Israel’s genocide in Gaza continues to disappoint. US sports organizations are among the worst offenders—with many leagues implementing flag bans and suffocating dissent under a culture of silence. Beyond US borders, it’s Muslim and Arab athletes who are setting the standard for solidarity. Take French soccer player Karim Benzema, who has endured denunciations from French politicians and racist accusations of affiliation with the Muslim Brotherhood for his solidarity with Palestine. Sports writer Karim Zidan joins Edge of Sports for a closer look at where the lines are being drawn in the sports world, and the complicated politics that may underlie athletes’ decisions to speak out or remain silent.
Studio Production: Cameron Granadino and David Hebden
Post-Production: Taylor Hebden
Audio Post-Production: David Hebden
Opening Sequence: Cameron Granadino
Music by: Eze Jackson & Carlos Guillen
Transcript
Dave Zirin: Karim Zidan, thank you so much for appearing with us here on Edge of Sports.
Karim Zidan: Oh, thank you so much, Dave. I feel like it’s been a long time coming, given that you and I cover so many similar topics.
Dave Zirin: Absolutely. I want you to help make me smarter about what’s happening right now at the intersection of the calls for a ceasefire and sports. What are you seeing outside the US in terms of athletes speaking out about Israel’s war on Gaza?
Karim Zidan: So we’re seeing it die down significantly now that we’re nearly 40 days into the war, unfortunately. But early on we did see a lot of Arab athletes in particular speak out almost immediately. We had an Egyptian swimmer called Abdelrahman Sameh, he immediately spoke up after winning a swimming championship but what he did was he revealed that he’s been getting death threats and intimidation basically due to the fact that he’s been speaking out in favor of Gaza and the Palestinian cause. Again, this is somebody who flat out said I’m not being anti-Semitic, I’m not targeting anybody, I’m simply trying to raise awareness and show solidarity for Palestine. He claims that because of that, he ended up receiving death threats.
Another probably far more notable name that you know here is Karim Benzema. Karim Benzema is one of the most successful soccer players in the world right now and he was immediately one of the people who came out in solidarity with Palestine, said a very, very reasonable statement talking about reaching a ceasefire, stopping the killings, etc. And he was accused of being a member of the Muslim Brotherhood by actual French politicians, and leading officials in the government, immediately accused him of being a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is horrific Islamophobia, to say the least. You know what I mean?
So there have been some complicated and difficult scenarios that raise what I believe, Dave, to be extreme tribalism on both sides now because you’re seeing it. In the US you’re seeing immediately after the awful attacks, the horrific attacks that took place on October 7, you saw Lebron James, the NBA, Major League Baseball, and all these other US leagues immediately released statements saying they stand with Israel. But in the month thereafter, those same organizations have not released statements calling for a ceasefire or showing any form of solidarity with Palestine.
Instead, what we’ve seen is a lot of these leagues institute flag bans. And they’re trying to be so sneaky, even with the flag ban, saying that it’s generally a flag ban, banning all identifying flags. So that would count for other flags like LGBTQ+ flags, etc. It’s no instance that this took place shortly after the attacks so it’s clear that even modes of free expression are being limited in US sports when it comes to this topic.
I can take this to one further extreme and tell you that in contrast to this wishy-washyness taking place in mainstream US organizations, what I’m noticing is in the world of combat sports in the UFC – Which is well known for its controversy, for the most part – You’ve had a lot of Muslim athletes there show solidarity with Palestine. One of the organization’s champions during an event in Abu Dhabi last month in UFC 294, his name is Islam Machachev, after he won in his headlining fight, he actually draped himself in a Palestine flag and simply said let’s work towards peace here. I stand with Palestine and Palestinian solidarity. The UFC which has been a proponent of free speech supposedly and relationships with Donald Trump, etc., actually censored that from the YouTube broadcast. And the co-main event –
Dave Zirin: Wow.
Karim Zidan: – I know, I know which is the extreme example of hypocrisy. Really, very stark there for the UFC. Let me give you an odd, absurd counterpart to that in the co-main event of that same event, there was another fighter, a Chechen Muslim fighter called Hamza Chimaev. Hamza Chimaev, after his fight – Also successful, also won – He gave a post-fight speech in the octagon with Joe Rogan next to him where he said, let’s all work towards peace – This is what he said in English – I don’t want to see children dying. I want us to reach peace. And then he gave a second statement in Chechen. Now, once I was able to find the translation of that, I was shocked here because what the Chechen translation said, he directed it straight at Chechen warlord, Ramzan Kadyrov – Who runs the semi-autonomous Republic of Chechnya and is a close ally of Vladimir Putin – He directs his words at Kadyrov and says, Chief, I represent you. I want you to send me to Palestine so I can die with my brothers.
Dave Zirin: Wow.
Karim Zidan: So talk about two contrasting statements right there from the same person in English calling for peace, in Chechen saying that he wants to go die with his brothers in Palestine. So honestly, there have been lots of examples of stuff going on.
I’ll give you one more before I give this back to you, Dave, which is you’ve had these Muslim MMA fighters responding this way. Let’s talk about the tribalism of what the Israeli UFC fighters and MMA fighters are saying. One of them, his name is Haim Gozali. Haim Gozali is about 50-something years old now, so he’s a retired fighter, but he’s in the scene. He’s referred to as the Israeli Batman because of this tattoo he has on him. He posted a photo of an artillery shell that he inscribed with the names of Muslim MMA fighters, the same ones that I’ve been listing: Khabib Nurmagomedov, Hamza Chimaev, and Belal Muhammad who is a Palestinian fighter. On top of that, he inscribes it with their names and a message beneath it saying, this is for the rats. So there’s some horrific stuff taking place right now.
Dave Zirin: Wow. It’s so interesting that one side is calling for peace and the other side is calling people rats. It’s its own story unto itself. I have some questions about MMA for you but before we get there, there’s also Anwar El Ghazi, the Dutch soccer player for the Bundesliga who lost his job. We named maybe half a dozen people. Is that it? Is that what we’re talking about? I can add Michael Bennett here in the States, maybe an Instagram post or two. It does feel very shallow in terms of how people in the sports world are responding to this. So my double question for you is, is it shallow, and given the wellspring of athlete activism that we’ve seen in recent years, how do you explain that shallowness?
Karim Zidan: In comparison to what’s recognizable to US sports fans, yes, it would be very shallow. I’d say that pool expands a little bit and gets a little deeper when you incorporate Arab teams and Arab athletes around the world. Especially in the first few weeks of the war, I regularly saw Egyptian football teams and their players showing extreme solidarity on the pitch. Certain players were flashing this double peace sign that refers to this Palestinian cartoon called Handala. This is a Palestinian cartoon of resistance so it was a very creative and non-threatening protest. And you were seeing some of that across the Arab world but it doesn’t get the same attention, unfortunately. When we talk about the media that we are consuming for the most part, it primarily comes from a Western perspective and if you’re following that type of media landscape, well absolutely, it’s extremely shallow.
Now, you tie that back to the extreme athlete activism we’ve seen with regard to a variety of human rights concerns. It’s not only the athletes themselves who’ve been active; We’ve had organizations and sports leagues and corporations throw their weight behind these causes of human rights and the values that we’re supposed to share in this morality that we’re looking towards. But it’s very disappointing to see a lot of those same organizations stand with the oppressor here and ask for more warfare and more bloodshed. Which is extraordinarily disappointing, right?
I’ll say this as an Egyptian, Dave; It’s very difficult for me right now to look at what’s happening in the world, as someone who believes in human rights and believes in us fighting for this together, to see certain values and certain ideals are held at a higher standard than others, and that not all people are equal is extraordinarily disappointing. That’s how it appears right now. I understand on an individual level, humans are better than that, but what we’re seeing around us is quite disappointing.
Dave Zirin: Can you name some of those sports organizations that you feel haven’t stepped up, that you wish had stepped up?
Karim Zidan: At this point, I feel like any of the ones I’d named, we could immediately call hypocrites because what have they ever really proven? I wrote an article about this shortly after the war broke out, Dave, called On War’s Peace and Sports, looking at FIFA and the International Olympic Committee, and questioning their claims of being peacemakers. For years, you’ve heard Gianni Infantino, president of FIFA, claim that FIFA can bring about peace. Infantino stated at one point a couple of years ago during a visit to Israel that his dream is to see Israel and its Arab neighbors host the World Cup.
Oh, no, no joke. This is exactly what he thinks. You’ve had the same thing. Thomas Bach has to interact with both the Palestinian Olympic Committee and the Israeli Olympic Committee. And he’s attempted to say that through sports we can bring about peace. I understand that this is the Olympic motto, this romanticized notion that sports can bring about change. Sports can magnify changes taking place in the world, I do not believe that sports themselves can bring about change. Primarily because we see the leaders in charge of these organizations are in the pursuit of profit, happy to work with whatever authoritarians or autocrats they see in their path, and they work for their stakeholders and shareholders.
These are not working for the interests of the people or absolute peace. That’s not true at all. The only reason they would ever seek out peace is if it’s an opportunity to host another event and to make more money. With that selfishness as your primary goal – And this would apply to any other organization that claims to be representing human rights, speech, and NBA or whatever organization you can think of – As long as your primary goals are profit and meeting the goals of your stakeholders, you’re never going to be representing the interests of the people. It’s never going to happen.
Dave Zirin: Right. Absolutely. Even in the US, 68% of the country is now for a ceasefire; 80% of Democrats. You can’t find 68% of the people in the US to agree on the color of the sky, and yet they agree on a ceasefire, and yet you don’t see that reflected or represented in the sports world either in the response of leagues or the response of the overwhelming majority of athletes, who I do feel like are treating this entire issue like it’s an electrified rod. As the saying goes, they don’t want to French kiss the light socket, because that takes some courage to do that and to step out on this issue because there are going to be repercussions.
Karim Zidan: But I certainly think that there’s an element of willful ignorance involved here as well. This is not the first cause that I find that athletes have ignored in the past. I’ve mentioned Ramzan Kadyrov earlier and Ramzan Kadyrov in the world of mixed martial arts, he’s been extremely influential. You’re talking about a warlord with a penchant for fighting. He started his own MMA fight clubs and all these various entities and at the same time, while he was building up his reputation as a patron of the fight game, he was also purging the LGBTQ+ community in Chechnya.
And every time I tried to raise this issue with the UFC or with fighters who were happily associating and taking money from this man – This is before he and his entities got sanctioned by the US Treasury department – They would regularly say, oh, I don’t talk about politics. Oh, I don’t know what’s happening over there. Oh, I don’t think about that. It’s so far away. I’m talking to the person, he seems like such a nice person. That is willful ignorance. That’s the idea that, oh, this is such a foreign and exotic concept that I don’t need to understand it. You still hear, Dave, people say that about Israel-Palestine. Oh, I don’t know what’s going on.
Are you telling me that seventy-five years after the initial Arab-Israel conflict you still have no idea what’s going on? Do you have no frame of reference? If you are a 30-something-year-old person, how many wars between Israel and Gaza have you seen? And how do you still not know what’s going on? How have you still not formed an opinion? And if you have stood by the oppressed and all these other examples, then why aren’t you loudly and clearly standing with them now?
Dave Zirin: That’s right. It’s the right question. Some MMA questions for you, because you’ve written about this so extensively. Here’s the two-parter; The MMA, UFC, how do you explain why fascists and authoritarians have found fertile ground in this particular sport? Why is that the case? Then do you think the issue of Palestine and the fact that fighters are speaking out about this change the political balance of forces at all in this world?
Karim Zidan: That’s a great two-parter. So let me answer this as succinctly as I possibly can here. I believe it depends, first of all, on the context. If you’re talking about the rise of neo-Nazi fight clubs that we’re seeing across the US right now – That is a select group of neo-Nazis who have realized that they can lure in and attract disenfranchised youth across the US and around the world to this fraternity and this brotherhood where they could train in combat, train for a future conflict, train to punch a liberal or do whatever it may be for these street fights and this ongoing conflict that they see that’s coming – That type of radicalization has been extremely effective with combat sports as a tool. So that’s why we’re seeing, for instance, neo-Nazis utilize it.
On the other hand, when we’re talking about autocrats and authoritarians when we’re talking about Donald Trump associating with the UFC, when we’re talking about Ramzan Kadyrov doing the exact same thing, they view this more… And I wouldn’t even call this sports-washing. It’s not even about distracting from human rights abuses. What this is about presenting this alter ego of machismo, this toxic and ultra-masculinity that is appealing to a certain segment of the population now, both in the US and abroad. It has done wonders for people like Kadyrov; he is known as a strong man and to his people he’s viewed as a thriving and successful leader. Because he’s been able to take out the so-called terrorists that were a problem in Chechnya, he’s been able to do all different things, and at the same time, he is the leader who has been able to bring characters like Floyd Mayweather, Mike Tyson, all these significant figures in the world of combat sports along him by his side walking shoulder-to-shoulder. That effect rubs off on the people as well. So for Ramzan Kadyrov, he’s definitely appealing. He’s trying to create this strongman impression of himself, even if it doesn’t necessarily exist as a real person.
Donald Trump has been doing the same thing. He recently had an interview with the UFC. It’s a UFC podcast, and it was a sit-down video interview, and he was with one of the fighters and another presenter called Jim Norton. I sat down to watch this thinking, okay, this is going to be Trump doing his usual narcissistic thing of being extremely selfish and turning the conversation around into whatever interests him or his political ideology. What was fascinating, Dave, was that he focused on having a conversation about boxing. He talked about the time he spent with Mike Tyson, how he got into the boxing game and promoted that, how he got started with the UFC, and about his favorite fighters, the favorite fights he’s watched over the years.
When you look through the comment section, what I was seeing on Twitter thereafter, is that even people who didn’t like Trump were immediately like, oh my God, have you ever seen another US president who has been able to sit down and have this normal conversation, feel like he’s one of us? Trump has now also been able to use the mystique of these sports that are counterculture, that is attractive to a lot of the apolitical communities in the US and the apathetic youth of the US, and be like, hey, look, I’m a regular guy. I can sit here and have a conversation with you about any sports you like and all these athletes that you love. I love them too. So there’s a great amount of reputation laundering and marketing that can take place through something like this.
To answer the second part of your question, when it comes to the issue of Palestine, the UFC as much as it is catering itself to this counterculture far-right element of its fan base – This GOP, Trump style, MAGA contingent of its fan base – As much as the UFC still has to walk the tightrope of understanding, it is a diverse international sport that has had LGBTQ plus champions, they’ve had multiple queer champions. They’ve had Brazilian champions. They’ve had Black champions. The list goes on. It’s one of the most diverse sports there is. That includes having Dagestani, Chechen, and Palestinian representatives in the organization, meaning they’re Muslim contingent, which are also champions and effectively stars in the organization, will also get a say. So that’s something the UFC has to figure out.
Dave Zirin: That’s interesting. I wonder if UFC fighters speaking about Palestine and about peace – Which runs counter to the toxic masculinity that you talk about – I wonder if that feeds into, as you put it, the editing process to keep some of these statements from reaching that apolitical audience. You could see how it could work counter to the image they’re trying to project if you have Donald Trump seeming like Mr. Ordinary Guy and then you hear him talking about turning Gaza into a supermarket and people hear that, but they see their fighters speaking for a free Palestine, that could also cause some very welcome cognitive dissonance.
Karim Zidan: Oh, it absolutely can. I wonder if the UFC leaves some of that in to make sure it can lure in its fan bases elsewhere. I bet you the UFC understands that at the end of the day, this is an American corporation that’s trying to make as much money as possible. And for right now, the UFC has never been more successful or more profitable, let’s say. They make well over a billion dollars in revenue. And for the UFC, that’s extraordinary. For Endeavor, the company that owns the UFC, it is their cash cow at the moment.
So for an organization like that, they’re not going to risk their fan bases where they can. They’ll cater to them in a certain way with Donald Trump. From one pay-per-view event to the other, Dave. You had a pay-per-view event in Abu Dhabi which catered to this more diverse Arab audience, a bigger Muslim contingency, there were more Indians and Pakistanis in the stands. So the UFC event feels slightly different. The fighters that are on this card are different. There are a lot more Muslim fighters on a card like that. But then you move to the next event, which was in Madison Square Garden, and Dana White, the UFC president emerges with who alongside him, but Donald Trump, Tucker Carlson, Kid Rock, and Donald Trump JR., right? It’s as if you’re watching two entirely different sports or two different things. It’s bipolar. It’s very strange watching the UFC do this.
Dave Zirin: Yeah. Wow. That’s like a group of villains who, the thing they have in common is abusing women. And you add Tyson and Mayweather to that. It’s amazing the common thread that runs through violent hostility towards women.
Karim Zidan: And they’re all bonding over mixed martial arts. When I got started doing this, Dave, I never would’ve thought that mixed martial arts would play such an interesting and absurd role in so many presidential elections in the US so far; that it would be a weapon for anti-Semites and neo-Nazis. This is not something I anticipated getting into the sport but it’s very clear to me that there are these themes, there are these common denominators across this violent sport that makes it very appealing to people like this.
And that’s disappointing and the more I see sports fans ignore this or sports fans tell me things like, oh, you don’t love this sport. You’re talking about this because you want us to hate it. Well, no, actually, I feel the same way. But anybody who’s ultra-nationalistic and refuses to insult their government does not understand what loving your country or loving a sport is. It means being able to critique it and criticize it when you think it’s doing wrong and expecting better from it. That’s what we should all be doing expecting better from ourselves, from organizations, from our countries, and our politicians. This all applies across the board.
Dave Zirin: You mentioned that you and I do similar beats and write about similar intersections between sports and politics. However, a difference is that I don’t have Roger Goodell or Adam Silver threatening to break my legs or anything like that, nor do I live in fear of them breaking my legs. But through doing this work, have you ever felt unsafe in doing the work that you do?
Karim Zidan: Yes, I most certainly have. I used to do a lot of work in Russia itself. I was an English commentator for a Russian mixed martial arts promotion at the time but it was through having access to this organization and to Russia in general – Because I was able to do a lot of trips across the board and the whole country really – That I ended up discovering Ramzan Kadyrov. It was around the same year that I started working in Russia that he was forming his fight club. So talk about a coincidence. For me, it was an opportunity to report on something so absurd, so strange, that nobody knew about it all. And it did help make my career, but at the same time, it was a curse because I did get significant death threats that forced me to leave the country. I was told never to come back again. I haven’t been able to go back to a country that I enjoyed being in. There was a lot of work to be done still.
So I have faced death threats from Kadyrov and unfortunately from others as well. I face them from neo-Nazis who contact me on Telegram and elsewhere, and some threats I take more seriously than others, but I’ve learned to – At this point, after nearly a decade of doing stuff like this – Let it be like a water off a duck’s back at this point. I don’t know how else to explain it other than to say that to an extent, and it’s very strange to say so, but it feels normalized. I’m used to not, for instance, geolocating myself.
I never post photos of myself while I’m still at a location. You’ll only see me post photos of something after I’ve already left the place safely. I rarely report on, oh, I’m going to be here at this time, come see me, for instance. It is something I’ve learned to accept is not something I can do safely at all. But the strange thing about all that at the same time, Dave, is I don’t regret anything I’ve done. People will be like, oh, you’re so brave. I’d say, well, actually, I was young and stupid. I was in my 20s at the time. I’m happy to admit that. You don’t think of consequences the same way. But I look back on it now with the benefit of hindsight and I regret nothing.
Dave Zirin: So I wanted you on the show to speak about the international sporting dimension of resistance to the bombardment of Gaza. Before you go, and thank you so much for being generous with your time, is there anything we’re missing or any part of this that you’d like to expound upon?
Karim Zidan: You know what, I will expand on one thing. Because not only did we not mention but it’s been a big focus for me right now is the rise of Saudi Arabia and the world of sports. But with regards to Gaza and Palestine, here’s where Saudi Arabia – Which has gotten so many compliments for all its successes recently in its unprecedented sports drive – Is working against it during this conflict. And I’ll tell you why; A couple of weeks ago, Saudi Arabia hosted this really big super fight between former UFC heavyweight champion Francis Ngannou and current WBO boxing champion Tyson Fury.
Now talk about the glitz and glamour here. You had a ring being brought up from under the ground, there was an opening ceremony for the fight, and it was a huge showcase. It was supposed to be the event that inaugurates Saudi Arabia’s Riyadh season, which is this winter festival that’s taking place every year in Saudi Arabia, and this was supposed to be the big one. They’ve been promoting it for months. They want the tourism, they want the attention but a few weeks before the event is when the war broke out in Gaza. And in Egypt, where I’m from, and in other Arab countries to take on a state of semi-mourning, people have canceled all the major events. Anything that would’ve appeared to be a celebration was canceled. The only place that didn’t do so was Saudi Arabia. The only place.
Dave Zirin: Wow.
Karim Zidan: You had stars from across the world. You had Kanye West, you had Eminem, you had all these celebrities. You had the Undertaker, Vince McMahon, all these people were attending this boxing fight while 900 miles away, Gaza was being utterly bombarded. Now, Saudi Arabia, which is trying to use sports to magnify this impression that it is emerging as a regional hegemon – It is jousting right now for regional supremacy from countries like Qatar and the United Arab Emirates – But when it is the country that at the same time chooses to still go ahead with its event, this display of ostentatiousness instead of taking the lead on Gaza, was a major mistake from Hamad bin Salman, the Crown Prince.
I’m very curious to see going forward, if they will redeem themselves somehow, or if this is a sign that Saudi is far more interested in itself, its economy, and Saudi nationalism than it is in Arab solidarity or Arab identity overall. Because that’s very different to the impression we’ve been given by Mohammed bin Salman. I find it interesting that Gaza has emerged as a nuisance to Saudi Arabia rather than a priority.
Dave Zirin: Interesting. Could that also be related to Saudi Arabia wanting to keep the door open to an alliance with Israel to keep Iran in check?
Karim Zidan: Certainly. And beyond keeping Iran in check, Saudi Arabia has integrated itself into the global economy in a way that it can’t back out of instantly without completely collapsing MBS’s Vision 2030 master plan. He’s trying to build these alternative economic sectors and divest from oil, which has always been Saudi Arabia’s leverage. For them to do that, they simply can’t withdraw from the global stage right now. They need to cooperate with all entities, including Israel.
So this is a very complicated situation for Hamad bin Salman. People always like to compare this to King Faisal from the 1970s who cut off oil supply to the Western world. Because of its treatment of the Palestinian people and its support for Israel at the time, it was Saudi Arabia’s form of sanctions. The US at the time threatened to bomb the oil fields and King Faisal smiled and responded – This is what he allegedly said – Saudi Arabia was once a country of goats and milk and we’re happy to go back to goats and milk. Now, Dave, I don’t think either Hamad bin Salman or the people of Saudi Arabia are willing to go back to goats and milk at all at this point.
Dave Zirin: No, not at all. Unless it was a solid gold statue of a goat drinking milk, I don’t think MBS has any interest in that whatsoever.
Karim Zidan: Exactly.
Dave Zirin: Well, we’re going to have to have you on in the future if you’re willing to speak about Saudi Arabia at greater length.
Karim Zidan: Absolutely.
Dave Zirin: How can people keep up with your writing, Karim?
Karim Zidan: Well, Dave, I still do work for The Guardian and The New York Times. You’ll find my stories regularly there. Other than that, I would appreciate it if people would subscribe to my newsletter/media outlet, Sports Politica. You can find it at sportspolitica.news.
Dave Zirin: Tremendous. Karim Zidan, thank you so much for joining us here on Edge of Sports.
Karim Zidan: It was a pleasure, Dave. Thank you so much.
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