As in most of the world, soccer, or football, is an immensely popular sport among Palestinians. From Gaza to the West Bank to the diaspora, the Beautiful Game plays a crucial role in the social life of Palestinian people. So of course, soccer is not immune from Israel’s war against Palestinian existence. While some fans and a handful of players have dared to speak out against Israel’s genocide, many of the most powerful institutions and figures in the sport have remained silent. Dr. Abdullah Al-Arian joins Edge of Sports for a discussion on the game’s significance to Palestine, and what the international response from the soccer world could and must look like.
Abdullah Al-Arian is an associate professor of history at Georgetown University in Qatar. He is the author of Answering the Call: Popular Islamic Activism in Sadat’s Egypt and the editor of Football in the Middle East: State, Society, and the Beautiful Game. He is editor of the “Critical Currents in Islam” page on the Jadaliyya e-zine.
Studio Production: David Hebden
Post-Production: Taylor Hebden
Audio Post-Production: David Hebden
Opening Sequence: Cameron Granadino
Music by: Eze Jackson & Carlos Guillen
Transcript
Dave Zirin: Welcome to Edge of Sports, the TV show, only on The Real News Network. I’m Dave Zirin. And I have back on the program, for what I think are obvious reasons, a guest we had on in August. He’s the editor of the book Football in the Middle East: State, Society, and the Beautiful Game: Dr. Abdullah Al-Arian. And we’re going to talk, of course, about the effect of Israel’s war on Gaza on the soccer world and the sports world internationally.
Abdullah, how are you, sir?
Abdullah Al-Arian: I guess we can say as well as can be under the circumstances.
Dave Zirin: I appreciate you starting on that note because, before we do speak about the sports world, Palestine, resistance and all the rest of it, this is a deeply personal issue for so many of us. And I was hoping, perhaps if you’re willing, you could speak a little bit how the war has affected your family.
Abdullah Al-Arian: This is one of those moments that you never thought you’d live to see, in a way, because there’s so many of us, I think, in this generation and those especially younger who only grew up hearing from our grandparents about what they endured as Palestinians who endured the actual Nakba in 1948, when they were expelled from their homes, forced to live as refugees. And the kinds of stories that you hear that have been passed on from one generation to the next are things that you think are part of a bygone world. And I say this knowing obviously all of the oppression and the fact that Palestinians to this day have never gotten any justice or liberation for everything that they’ve endured. And yet at the same time, I think what we’re watching unfold now really shocks the conscience in so many different ways.
You’d be hard pressed to meet a single Palestinian who’s not personally impacted by what’s going on in Gaza. Gaza, as you know, is one of the places that welcomed so many of those refugees from the rest of historical Palestine. So you’re talking about 70% of the population there are either survivors of the original Nakba or their descendants. And so what that means is Palestinians, no matter where they’re from with historical Palestine, are all in some ways connected. Almost every single person I know has lost relatives. My mother’s extended family has had at least 11 members killed since the beginning. So, it’s been many layers and many levels of trauma. And of course, it continues to unfold right before our eyes by the day.
Dave Zirin: I’m going to jump in and editorialize real quick. One of the things about this that’s been so harsh to see is that I was raised, of course, as a Jewish person in the United States, with tons of stories about how our family shrunk because of the European Holocaust, the Jewish Holocaust, whatever we want to call it, in the 1940s. And this idea of eliminating bloodlines, eliminating communities, eliminating entire ancestries of people was something that we always talked about with hushed tones. And to see that reproduced is harrowing. It’s absolutely harrowing. And of course, the idea that it’s being done in the name of Jewish people is something that keeps me up at night.
But before we get to the question of sports and Palestine, I want to try to clear up something for our audience, because I think a lot of people are new to the topic now of the Middle East and how differentiated it is country to country, ethnicity to ethnicity. So in the Middle East, how is the Palestinian and the struggle for a free Palestine viewed? How is it viewed broadly in the Middle East?
Abdullah Al-Arian: Well, I think the way that it’s viewed in this region, in some ways, is similar to what people seem to be expressing across, I would say, most of the Global South, really, populations in Asia, Africa, Latin America who have all stood together now in terms of expressing this as a struggle against the settler colonial project that has its roots in Europe, like other settler colonial projects that we’ve seen in the Americas, as we’ve seen in parts of Africa, as we’ve seen elsewhere. So I think in that sense, there’s been a kind of universal understanding.
And at the same time, to your point, obviously, this region has suffered more directly in terms of the impact of this particular version or form of settler colonialism that we’re seeing unfolding in Palestine over the past century. And so for that reason, there’s been a very deep commitment and a very lasting commitment in terms of where Arab populations in particular have continuously expressed that solidarity.
And of course, we see it in all kinds of ways. It’s manifested recently through mass protests. We’ve seen it through the political pressure that’s being placed on governments, but also through economic pressure, through the types of boycotts that we’re seeing unfold. That expression of solidarity is ever present. I talked about this a lot, actually, last year when I was covering the World Cup in Qatar, where even The New York Times went out of its way to say that Palestine was the 33rd country present at the World Cup because of how visible it was in the first world cup to be held in the Middle East. And so there’s certainly a sense that the solidarity is there.
The other thing I would say, though, on this point is that I don’t remember a time historically where where the people stand on this particular issue is so diametrically opposed from where their political leaders are. And I think that’s a testament to a number of things.
Obviously, we’ve seen the impact of the Israeli and US pressure for states to normalize their relations with Israel in this region. We’ve seen it with the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco, Sudan, and Saudi, of course, we’ve known has been in the pipeline, in the works. And at the same time, we know that these same leaders, in all of these cases, are the ones that were opposed by their own people through the Arab Spring uprisings.
And so I also see these struggles as being interconnected, that we have to start seeing people’s struggles against their own repression, against the disenfranchisement that they’ve suffered from, the mass corruption, the theft that many citizens in this region have all endured at the hands of these authoritarian regimes. And so we saw those protests just a decade ago trying to overthrow these governments and replace them with something like a more representative, more democratic system that is centered around social justice.
And so, in the past, whereas a lot of these dictatorships used to actually use the Palestine issue as a way to channel the frustration of their own populations, now we’re actually seeing quite the opposite, where they understand that this is, in some ways, so connected to their own oppression of their populations that they’re also limiting what kinds of expressions people can show. And so we’re seeing, for instance, that the protests, in some ways, are being themselves very limited by the governments in this region.
Dave Zirin: So, wow, that’s really helpful, but let’s get to sports. What are you seeing internationally? Let’s start with soccer, because of course, that’s the subject of your book and the subject of your expertise. What are we seeing internationally in the soccer world among fans and fan clubs in response to the war on Palestine?
Abdullah Al-Arian: Dave, this is an extension of so many conversations we’ve had, where I think one of the things that we always seem to come back to is this idea that the world of sports is a mirror to the broader world that we all inhabit, and, in so many ways, is reflective of where power lies. And in that sense, unfortunately, we’re seeing the same kinds of things being reproduced here.
So on the official level, so in terms of where the governing bodies, the various leagues, of course, FIFA itself stands has been quite abysmal, to say the least. When we think about, for instance, what FIFA did following the invasion of Ukraine, to go and suspend, obviously, Russia, but to not see the same standard being upheld in this case. Not only that, but of course, we’re seeing that clubs are being fined when their fans are expressing any kind of solidarity with Palestine.
And so, in the case, for instance, of the Scottish Club Celtic, whose fans have a very long and deep history of being on the side of colonized people, this goes into the tradition of Irish Republicanism that Celtic represents, part of the working class, in favor of migrant rights and so forth. And so part of that rich history and tradition has seen it express its solidarity, or seen the fans express that solidarity, with Palestine going back many, many years. And yet, now of course, they’re being threatened, not just by the board of the club — So the corporate board that makes up the leadership of the club has threatened fans with expulsion, and at the same time, we’ve even seen UEFA, which governs the European competition, fine the fans $19,000 just for showing up with Palestinian flags at a recent match. And so we’re seeing this clash unfold in various ways.
It’s not to say that it’s the same everywhere. I think we’ve seen it in other places. So for instance, in Spain, you’ve had a number of fans showing up to stadiums. And again, I know that some of these might sound a bit like trivial displays, but I think it certainly speaks to that solidarity. There’s a certain power, I think, in the collective gathering in stadiums when you’re talking about tens of thousands of fans coming together, chanting, singing, raising banners, raising flags to demonstrate that solidarity. Those images travel widely, and they’re even viewed and received among Palestinians. And so I think there’s a reason why there are also so many efforts to see those images and see those voices silenced.
But we don’t see it as much in certain places. So for instance, in Spain, we’ve seen it in a number of stadiums including in the Basque Country at Real Sociedad’s match earlier last month. We’ve also seen it even the city of Barcelona, for instance, which recently voted to cut ties entirely with Israel following all of the devastating attacks in Gaza. So we’ve certainly seen, I think, more of a solidarity being expressed among fans.
And of course, this doesn’t even begin to cover the fans in this part of the world across the Middle East. That’s become sort of commonplace at every single, I wouldn’t say just sporting event. Any kind of major cultural event, any major public gathering is now really centered on the question of solidarity with Palestine. And the same is true across, again, Asia, Africa, and Latin America as well.
Dave Zirin: Could you say something about the Chilean team, Palestino, and what it represents, and what it’s done, and why in the world there’s even a team in Chile called Palestino?
Abdullah Al-Arian: Yeah. This team has such a fascinating history because, in many ways, it is the heir nowadays to any kind of an organized footballing presence. And so you’ll see people wearing their jerseys around the world even though they’re an obscure team in a league that no one really follows regularly. But because of the tradition, it’s the fact that the team was originally founded by original migrants coming from Palestine. And so we’ve seen waves of migration from what was known as Greater Syria that included Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon, many of them making their way to North America and South America. A lot of times this was due to economic dislocation, but also due to war and famine. And then later on, of course, with the Nakba in Palestine that saw the mass expulsion of 750,000 Palestinians in 1948.
And so through all of these different waves of dislocation, you end up with this football club that forms around the Palestinian community. And from everything I’ve read on it, the Palestinian community in Chile is so massive that some say it’s the largest outside of the entire Middle East region. I know there’s big communities in places like Chicago and New Jersey and elsewhere, but certainly, they have a claim to that as well.
And then I think also, in terms of the imagery, the symbolism, the name, that it ends up actually occupying such a prominent place, I think, in the hearts of fans all over the world.
Dave Zirin: No, absolutely. But let’s get back to some of the international dimensions of resistance in the world of sports. You mentioned fans. You mentioned fan clubs. You mentioned stadium presentations. What about players? What are we seeing from your vantage point?
Abdullah Al-Arian: Well, to be honest, I think among the more internationally recognized icons, superstars of the game, the reaction has been largely muted, and I think that’s for very deliberate reason, which is the fact that there has been such a chilling effect on any expression. And of course, again, we’ve seen this, not just in the world of sports, but across all professions. The policing that’s going on, the McCarthy-istic tactics that are being employed, as you very well know, especially within the US, but also within Europe, have had a major chilling effect. And in the very few instances where we have seen that level of solidarity being expressed, there have been consequences.
And so we’ve seen it with a couple of players. I think the most notable examples are Anwar El Ghazi, who’s a Dutch-Moroccan player who was playing for a German team who posted in solidarity with Palestine. The club suspended him. Eventually, they tried to force him to walk back his comments. When he refused to play ball with them, they basically terminated his contract. And so he came out, I think, with the statement where he said, look, I’ll always side with humanity. I’ll always side with the oppressed. And so he’s been very unapologetic, I think, about his moral stance there.
There’s another Algerian player named Youcef Atal who plays for Nice, which is, right now, actually the number two side in the French League. They’re neck and neck with TSG, giving them a run for their money this year in the league. And at the same time, when he posted something, or he shared something in support of Palestine, he was also suspended. And since then, he’s actually been criminally charged. So now the French authorities are actually seeking to punish him further in terms of his own expressions. And again, a lot of this being accused of hate speech and so forth.
So there’s also this tendency, I think, to see certain statements or things that are in any way expressions of support that ultimately are being criminalized in such a wide, sweeping way, that we don’t necessarily see the same kinds of things in terms of when a lot of pro-Israel expressions are being made, in that, of course, those things tend to be more or less permissible. And in fact, they’re being made not just along the side of players, but even clubs themselves are issuing these blanket statements, blanket condemnations. And of course, we’ve known where those initial condemnations have led in terms of all of the atrocities currently unfolding in Gaza are justified, in part through a lot of these official corporate statements that were coming out in the days and weeks after the start of these events.
Dave Zirin: So I’m going to draw some political conclusions based on what you just said, and I want you to tell me, I’m student and you’re professor here, whether you agree or disagree with what I’m drawing from what you’re saying. What I’m hearing from you is that when people are able to get together collectively, like fans, like in a stadium, there is a loud roar for Palestine. But when athletes are asked or feel compelled to speak out as individuals, they find themselves in an unsafe space. And the result of that, what we’re seeing is less so much a defiant bravery in the face of that other than a couple of examples. What we’re seeing instead is fear ruling the day. Is that correct?
Abdullah Al-Arian: Yeah, I think so. And when we actually consider where some of the spaces are, where athletes are more comfortable, it tends to be really coming out of this region. Including, for instance, in a strange twist because we’ve spent so much time, I think, over the last six months or so thinking about what Saudi Arabia is doing in terms of attempting, essentially, to disrupt the entire global football market by bringing in all of these mega stars: Neymar, Karim Benzema and others. But no one really stopped to think about maybe what are some of the potential political implications there.
So I thought it was really interesting, for instance, that Karim Benzema released a statement or posted in support of Palestine in a way that he never did in his 15, 16 years playing in Europe, and in a way that probably wouldn’t have been possible. And so I think it’s a bit strange to think that now all of a sudden there is this freedom for athletes in a way that wasn’t necessarily there before, at least on this particular issue.
And again, it really poses the question of why we have so many double standards? Why is it so easy to take certain positions that we consider to be morally correct or just positions? Why is it, as we said before, this parallel that we saw with Ukraine, where it was not only encouraged, but it was really the standard, official position of all of the governing bodies of all of the official institutions, structures, the powers that be, and yet at the same time, we’re not seeing anything remotely…? And instead, we’re actually seeing quite the opposite, where that freedom that is so often celebrated, the idea that you can express political views, and in particular in this case, something that I think is clearly on the side of the oppressed is certainly not being allowed to manifest.
Dave Zirin: We’re doing this interview about the intersection of sports and Gaza and resistance, and I’d like to take it to Gaza if we could, and the West Bank. We’re seeing the decimation of these spaces, thanks to Israeli military hardware. And that also means the bombing of sports infrastructure, fields, all the rest of it. The indiscriminate killings of people who play prominent roles in the sports world. But in “normal times” — And I say that knowing that there aren’t normal times — But in times where people in Gaza aren’t facing a genocide, what role do sports play?
Abdullah Al-Arian: Well, I think we’ve seen that this has been a way for Palestinians in particular to affirm their existence at the very basic level in terms of being a national unit, in terms of being a people whose existence has been denied and attacked for, basically, most of the past century. And so in that sense, I think being able to organize around something like sport has tended to be a way to assert themselves, to assert their existence, assert their presence, their identity, in a way that becomes harder, obviously, to deny, especially as we’ve seen even with the symbols of Palestino. I think it’s interesting that the Palestinian national team gets less recognition, and I think that’s as a result of the fact that it’s had so many obstacles to it being able to develop as an actual national side.
When you think about the state of Palestinians right now or in the recent past, imagine all the various legal categories in which they exist. So the Israelis treat Palestinians in the West Bank differently than they treat the Palestinians who are citizens of Israel, different than those who are residents of Jerusalem because that has its own status, different than those who are being imprisoned in Gaza, versus those who are refugees. So now we’ve just listed five different categories of Palestinians, all of whom have to overcome tremendous legal, military, political obstacles just to be able to get together to have a practice, to just be able to form a national team that can actually go off and compete.
And so those are the obstacles that obviously exist without even bringing in the idea of infrastructure, the field, as you said — By the way, those fields, many of which are now being used in Gaza as mass graves, to bury the thousands upon thousands who’ve been killed over the last almost two months now. So there’s definitely a sense of… That sports obviously is a site of resistance among many sites of resistance, and at the same time, no less challenged and no less, obviously, in terms of the number of obstacles that exist there as well.
Dave Zirin: You’ve been so generous with your time, but I can’t have you go without taking it to the States, especially since you and I do share an affinity for what I’ll also call the beautiful game, and that’s basketball. The NBA is a league with global appeal, particularly in the Middle East, but, frankly, everywhere. What can you say about the response of the National Basketball Association to the war?
Abdullah Al-Arian: I think it’s obviously disappointing for millions and millions of fans around the world who, of course, have embraced NBA basketball in particular. It’s done such a great job at marketing itself, probably, at this point among the US sports. I know the NFL is king in the US, but the NBA, among US sports, is by far the biggest abroad. And so I think there was, certainly, in the NBA’s statement initially, in the statement that was released by a number of teams, I think, a very one-sided approach, obviously, completely erasing not just history in context, but even everything that’s happened since.
And so I think there’s a mass disappointment. And especially, I think, surprising, given the fact that the NBA has made no secret about the fact that it really is seeking to grow the game to billions of people across, again, the same places that we’ve been talking about: the Global South, with Latin America, Asia, Africa, the Middle East, of course, where it’s grown significantly.
And so, from what everything we’ve noticed, I think there has been a broader moment now among what you might call consumers of all kinds: economic consumers, but also media and culture consumers around the world, who are having a stop and think and reflect moment about what it means to have embraced, I think, a lot of institutions, cultural institutions in particular, that have endorsed so actively so many war crimes and horrors that are unfolding against Palestinians, and what does it mean to be party to that in a way, by being a fan, or by watching films, or by going to Starbucks, or any of these things.
And so I think that’s what we’re seeing now unfold. And so in that sense, it was a moment, perhaps, for the NBA to try and show that it was taking a different path than what we’ve seen. But I think, certainly, what it showed is that it was basically falling into the same position as we’ve seen across many US institutions, unfortunately.
Dave Zirin: Yeah. And from the NBA media, nothing, and an oddly muted response to Kyrie Irving having a keffiyeh at a press conference, which I also think is a story unto itself. When they choose not to cover something like that, or debate something like that, that is also in and of itself a choice.
Abdullah Al-Arian: Yeah, absolutely. That was really interesting. I believe he’s probably the only player, at this point, who has spoken out. In the past, we have seen other players. I think back in 2014, maybe it was Dwight Howard and others who spoke up, some of them. Dwight Howard very famously had to delete his comments in support of Palestinians.
And so this time around, I think Kyrie, given his reputation as somewhat of a free thinker or someone who at least has been speaking in very anti-colonial terms for some time, and who’s been thinking in terms of universal struggles across many different communities that he’s both a part of or is allied with, I think, has been obviously a very powerful sight, especially at a time when the silencing is so rampant. And so I think, like you said, it is interesting that the decision has been essentially to ignore, for now.
I think, partly, that has to do with probably a collective decision about ensuring that this doesn’t become more of a conversation, that it doesn’t pit players against management and owners and the league again, as we’ve seen in the past has happened. And I think it’s also because of the fact that there’s ultimately a commodification that happens here of players and of the value, essentially, that… We’re talking about this at the exact time that we’re seeing these reports that the Mavericks are actually trying to sell a stake, a majority stake. And there’s a lot to say even just about those stories. But in general, I think, as you said, it’s really interesting that this is going under the radar.
Dave Zirin: That majority stake being sold to Miriam Adelson, who of course, late husband of Adelson, the incredibly powerful, right-wing Zionist and king maker of Republican Party politics. She’s going to have a position of great power in the NBA. And Mark Cuban’s facilitating that, and no one’s talking about that angle. I can tell you, some NBA people have gotten in touch with me and said to me — Like reporters, journalists, prominent journalists, and said, glad you’re saying something because I absolutely cannot. And then I’d ask, well, why can’t you say something? And I’m getting radio silence on the why, which is just… It’s a culture of silence.
And that leads me to my last question. Because you’re a professor, you speak about the McCarthyism that’s taking place. You surely know about how academics in the United States are being treated right now, and I’m sure in other parts of the world as well. Is that a concern for you at all in doing this work, that you’re going to effectively marginalize your ability to have employment, to do your job, to write all the things that you do?
Abdullah Al-Arian: I don’t think you should ever approach the decisions that you make in that sense. I think, really, it’s just about doing the work and trying to do as much justice as you can to the truth and to the commitments that you have that go far beyond these, I would say, narrower sets of interest. And again, I think it’s all about maintaining a sense of perspective and knowing that everyone who is in a position to say something about what we’re witnessing, it becomes not just that we’re in a privileged position, but that privilege comes with a sense of obligation and a sense of responsibility, and I see that in terms of so many people who have been.
And I think that’s been the really heartening thing, is seeing, despite everything that we’re talking about here, that ultimately, the bottom line in the story is the fact that we’ve never seen the level of support, the level of just principled solidarity that’s out there, and that people are really willing to be front and center.
And from the perspective, especially of Palestinians, many of whom their voices were often drowned out in the past or they found themselves alone, I think the level of allyship across so many different communities that we’ve seen, and as you’ve mentioned it many times, Dave, among, of course, Jewish Americans in the US, along with Black Americans, along with Indigenous communities, with so many others. And so I think there’s really something that is very different and very new, and, in some ways, very necessary and very needed at the same time. So I think that’s been clearly apparent. And so in that sense, when you’re part of something that’s much bigger, it doesn’t really come down to thinking about yourself in that moment. You’re thinking about everybody else and the struggle that you’re a part of.
Dave Zirin: Well, Dr. Abdullah Al-Arian, thank you so much for your time. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we go?
Abdullah Al-Arian: No, just really a word of thanks, Dave, for everything that you’ve been doing. Many of us have been listening and watching and reading, and I want you to know that it’s seen and heard and appreciated from so many people all over the world.
Dave Zirin: Well, that’s deeply appreciated. It really is. The book is called Football in the Middle East: State, Society, and the Beautiful Game. This incredible communicator is Dr. Abdullah Al-Arian. Thank you so much for joining us here on Edge of Sports.
Abdullah Al-Arian: Thanks for having me again.
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